Kelly Mackin 0:03
My favorite definition of stress is that stress is how we respond when our needs are not met. So we tend to label everything as stress, because it’s easy to kind of hide beneath the covers of it. But if you dig deeper, you can go, “Oh, I don’t feel secure at work, I feel afraid.” It’s not really just stress, I’m afraid, because my need for psychological safety, or my need for financial security isn’t being met. So you have to really understand yourself first before you can expect someone else to be able to understand you.

Blake Schofield 0:45
Hi, I’m Blake Schofield, founder and CEO of The Bridge to Fulfillment®. Mom to three, USA Today Top 10 Professional Coach, and former corporate executive who got tired of sacrificing my life for a comfortable paycheck. My mission is to expand perspectives to achieve greater impact at home and work without sacrifice. This is The Bridge to Fulfillment®.

Blake Schofield 1:22
I’m so excited for today’s podcast expert guest, Kelly Mackin. She’s the author of Work Life Well-Lived: The Motives Met Pathway to No-B.S. Well-Being at Work and co-founder and CEO of the Motives Met Platform and Human Needs Assessment which empowers people to create their best work life and workplace. Kelly’s book actually launches on April 2, so you get a sneak peek to learn more about what she’s really uncovered. Kelly and I have so much synchronicity and our experiences watching our mothers go through their personal career journeys, and how that really informed our experience and our passion around helping people truly have fulfillment, balance, joy, all of the things in their career and in their life. And so with no further ado, here’s Kelly.

Blake Schofield 2:15
Welcome to tThe Bridge to Fulfillment®, Kelly, I’m so excited to have you on the podcast today.

Kelly Mackin 2:20
Thank you, I am so excited to be here and chat with you about all the things today.

Blake Schofield 2:25
Yes, it’s gonna be so good. We have so many similar values. And as I said to you a minute ago, I think some similar experiences. So I’m excited to dive into those. And, you know, what I always see is that when we share our stories, we open the door and give permission for other people who are experiencing the things that we experienced to recognize that they’re not alone, and that there’s more possibility for their lives. So with that said, I’d love for you just to share a little bit about who are you what’s your background? And how did you kind of lead into the work in the life that you have today?

Kelly Mackin 2:59
Yeah, so my journey to really be helping people create well being in their lives today stems back all the way from when I was a kid and really experiencing my mom having such just really terrible ill being in her work life and being in this very toxic work environment. And as a kid, you know, you struggle so much to see your parent suffering like that. And I remember it was such extremes in her work experience, because when I was really young, work was pretty great for my mom. She was one of the first senior VP, like women VP’s at the largest global advertising agency in research. She had a very demanding job, but work lit her up. It gave her such confidence and purpose and joy. Even though it wasn’t perfect, most of her needs were well met at work. And then her company got bought out and everything changed. And I would see her getting physically sick before work, I would hear her crying. And it was just to a place where nothing at all was going to be healthy in her work life. And I think that’s kind of what is so sad to see is that work can actually be this source of wellbeing in people’s lives, it can lift us up and make our lives so much better, even if it’s just simply a profoundly that it allows us to live the life we want to live outside of our jobs. And it can also be the thing that destroys us. So you know, we say that we spend around a third of our lives at work. So at the end of the day work life is life. If you have ill being at work, you’re not gonna be able to have well being in your overall life.

Kelly Mackin 4:40
So unfortunately even though I kind of witnessed my mom’s whole experience, I still had the belief system like I know many people do today still and struggle with today, that you know, this is kind of the way it is. You know, if you want to be successful, you got to suck it up. You got to push through, you got to hustle hard. And one day maybe once you’ve given a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, then you can earn some health and happiness. Then you can, you know, actually prioritize your needs at work. So I went down a really similar path and ended up in an advertising agency that I would equate to like mad men for the modern times. It was insane. Like, what on the other side, I can now see how insane it was. But it took hitting some real lows. I mean, my physical, mental, and emotional health was just in the complete toilet, it was awful. And then I woke up and got clarity, and just completely changed my whole life. I moved from Chicago out to California, to really just pursue well being both in and outside of work.

Kelly Mackin 5:45
And growing up my mom’s daughter, I loved research. So I dove deeper into human behavior research, and why we do what we do, why we don’t do some things that sometimes we want to do. And then that led me to want to understand things at a deeper level. So I went into psychology and cognitive behavioral therapy, and mind management, and psychological safety at work. Had a coaching practice and mindfulness, and meditation. But it was interesting, a lot of the stress and burnout, and worry, and doubt, and fear that my clients were having was related to experiences in their work life. And so eventually, I started really focusing more on well being at work. And then my mom and I, and about 2017’s, this is pre pandemic, we were talking about the fact that we were so thrilled that people were talking about well being at work. But we realized that the world didn’t really know what it was. And then that’s what really led us on this whole wild, crazy journey to dive into our own research and build our whole platform today, that’s all about empowering people to create their best work life and workplace.

Blake Schofield 6:50
I love it so much. There’s so much synchronicity in your story and mine. My parents divorced when I was seven, and I watched my mom go through, I guess she almost had the flip reverse, I watched her go through a level of stress and anxiety, overworking feeling like she was never good enough. Very successful in what she was doing. But to be honest, I saw a lot of sexism and what happened to her. I saw her be promised things and then not get them. I watched her get laid off. I watched her change careers. And it was very difficult to watch it just like you said, the level of suffering that she went through for her job and the level of pressure and anxiety as a single mother that she had to take care of her girls and feel like she didn’t have any other choice. And it wasn’t until I hit high school when she finally really found a company in a career path that allowed her to grow, that developed her, that enabled her to get that level of confidence. And I saw her become in many ways a different person. And often we don’t realize how formative those things are as children. And I don’t know about you, I have three kids, I often now that I understand this, and I’ve spent my life and is especially the last seven years diving heavily into this. Understand that as parents, we’re so focused on our children. But if we focused more on our own well being, we would be far better examples to our children to live their best lives.

Blake Schofield 8:21
And so you know, I did the exact same thing that you did. My mom had been in corporate retail, I ended up in corporate retail even though I got my degree in psychology, was going to become a marriage and family psychologist, but something was off about it. And so I ended up going into human resources, that wasn’t for me. Ended up going into merchandising, building, growing turning around 7, 8, 9 figure businesses. And I went through all the cycles of being fulfilled and unfulfilled. But I, like you, suffered pretty tremendously. Shingles at 28 years old, horrible, not some things in my neck and shoulders, sick all of the time. And so I did 18 years of that journey, multiple cross country moves until in 2017, I also left and decided that I was willing to sacrifice, at the time I believed I had to sacrifice my income for what I would have called a “more sane life”, more fulfilling work more time for my kids. And it was through then, my personal journey that I came to understand that everything I had been doing, by enlarge was trying to solve the problem that that seven year old girl saw for her mother, which was like “How can you be happy? How can you do these things?”

Blake Schofield 9:28
And so it was through that journey of watching my mother’s pain, that I came to really begin to understand how can you be fulfilled, and what is a meaningful life, and what does success look like, and what keeps us from achieving those things. And so when I saw your story and and the synergy that we both have learned through that, I think it’s really beautiful because as adults if you don’t learn these things, or you don’t know anything about this, you don’t realize you are just repeating the very patterns that you grew up with. You are repeating the trauma, the belief systems, and the conditioning, that you are here for. That you, you know, come with. And to me, the greatest part of the journey has began to understand that like the growth in life is to be able to see those things, challenge those things, and overcome them to create the life that you really want.

Blake Schofield 10:16
And so when you say that, so much of society still believes that you just have to hustle and grind and suffer, and that’s just the way that it is. That is why I stayed so long, I made so much money. And I just believed in order to run and be successful in a career, this is what it had to look like. And I was surrounded by other people who were miserable and suffering and unhappy. And I used that as justification to believe that I had to suffer or I had to work this way, or this was the only way out. And so I’m excited to continue this conversation today. Because a huge part of my passion, is to help people truly see there’s more possibility for their life. And that you don’t have to sacrifice your income, you don’t have to start over, you really can create a career in life that is fulfilling, that is balanced, that is joyful, and exciting, and passionate, and all of the things that you want for your life that we have so many more choices than our parents did, than our grandparents did. But it starts with being willing to see that there’s another way.

Kelly Mackin 11:22
So many more choices, like you’re saying, we have so many more choices, and people are at least awake to this idea. Now the work well being movement is, has picked up so much momentum in the last few years. So it’s a really great time for everyone to take a step back and really redefine what work can be. Because again, like I was saying, I think that’s the toughest part for me at times was going “God, but it can be so great.” It really can be this amazing source of happiness and health and people’s lives when we get it right.

Blake Schofield 11:56
Yeah. And I think when we get it right is the real question. I feel like you know, someone who started my career out in Human Resources has spent a lot of time looking at this, I came to the same conclusion that you do, I often say how we do one thing is how we do everything. And whatever pattern you’re seeing in your work is also a pattern that you’re seeing in your personal life. And if you are putting things into a silo, you’re really not seeing the lessons that life is teaching you that are really there to help move you forward. And so often I see a lot of there’s a lot of push for wellbeing in work and bring your authentic self. And I can tell you after having worked at five different organizations, and of course now at this point, helping hundreds of people and seeing what is their experience inside all of these companies that by enlarge, most companies still don’t really understand what this is, and are still approaching it from a very sort of either cookie cutter or bandaid methodology.

Blake Schofield 12:49
And so in many ways, I think there’s opportunities to and this is really, you know, a big part of this forum is to help the leaders gather these skills, because then those leaders can lead their teams and can create change from the inside. And so I’m interested in your perspective, you know, research, just, as we talked about, there’s a lot of discussion on wellbeing. It’s a hot topic, but your research is showing what we’ve been taught about health and happiness and work is wrong, which probably I would assume aligns with some of what I am seeing. Can you share what you’ve really learned about what matters in that realm? And how that’s different than maybe what we think it is?

Kelly Mackin 13:25
Sure, yeah, there’s a few main obstacles when it comes to approaching work well being. And we identified 10 dream killers that threatened what we call the attainable dream of a work life well lived. And in my book, I go through these dream killers, but a few of them are just related to the fact that if we’re getting it wrong, and we don’t have shared meaning and mindset around what being well at work is, then how are we going to get there? Right, like goal clarity equals goal achievement? How is your team going to work together towards the goal of having a thriving culture, high well being, if everybody is thinking about it differently, or even worse off not thinking about it at all? Or, like you’re saying, thinking about it in terms of band aids, like, oh, yeah, give me that extra mental health day off or give me free yoga classes or whatever, you know, we’re just putting the band aids on and that isn’t gonna work either. So the few obstacles we saw when we started on this wild journey to go, “Well, how do we even define work well being?”

Kelly Mackin 14:21
One is that when we’re defining it, it can lack specificity, saying things like hey, well being at work is when employees are happy, healthy, satisfied in their work environment. Okay, that sounds nice. What the heck does that really mean? Right? Like I use the term health and happiness all the time, but it doesn’t serve us as a definition for well being at work, because it leaves it this fluffy, elusive, vague thing. Another thing we saw is that even when there was specificity that it was inaccurate, or just kind of suboptimal. So for example, in our research, we asked people, you know, well, “How do you think about wellbeing at work or what does it mean for you or your team?” And some of the answers we got were like, “Oh, it’s me being able to get my job done without costing me my sanity.” Or “It’s when I like what I do and have friends at work, or it’s when my employees feel valued.” And it’s like as we as we dug deeper into the research, it’s like well, sure, with less stress and more sanity help your work wellness, like, Yeah, is it good if your team likes what you do? Yeah. But is that really the optimal way for us to think about well being at work? Well, we found it wasn’t.

Kelly Mackin 15:25
And even for me, when I share with people that I have a platform all around work wellbeing, I’ll often get the response “Oh, so you help people have work life balance.” And that’s actually a huge misconception. It can 100% be part of someone’s work wellness, and it may not at all be part of theirs. For example, I actually don’t need strong work life balance, and I can share more about why that is in a bit, because usually people’s ears perk up when they hear that. But that’s what our research shows and I’m also living breathing proof of it. Another thing we saw is that vital aspects of well being at work go missing. You know, it’s great in recent years flexibility or belonging, inclusion, these things have kind of become part of the work happiness convo, right. But things like having fun at work, being challenged, being able to speak freely, this stuff just isn’t always is woven into the work wellbeing conversation. But we discovered for some people, it’s vital for them to thrive at work, even if they didn’t really consciously know it, which is interesting, because they don’t always consciously know that, “Hey, yeah, I guess, having fun is actually really, really important to me.”

Kelly Mackin 16:29
And then last but not least, the thing that drives me crazy, and I could go off on a tangent, so I will keep it short and sweet, is that there is so much dang noise out there to navigate through. Whether it’s from TED talks, or CEOs, or researcher books, there is information out there screaming at you that “Hey, purpose is the answer.” Or if you give your employees security, that’s what’s gonna get them to stay. But other research is like, well, people leave because of a bad boss. No, they leave because they don’t get, you know, job promotions. One social media influencer tells you it’s all about hustling to reach your potential, go after those big dreams. And another one is like, screw the hustle. It’s about work life balance and working remote from anywhere. And so it isn’t that there isn’t, you know, valuable information out there. But what are we supposed to do with all that? We need a way to organize, prioritize and make sense of it in a way that really serves us because it’s contradictory a lot of times. So we felt like, Hey, we are just drowning in information, but starving for real wisdom, which is why we kind of dove deep to get that wisdom. And essentially, what we uncovered is that there are 28 psychological, emotional, and social human needs that drive well being at work.

Kelly Mackin 17:42
And we call these motives. And these 28 motives fall into 10, bigger buckets or motive domains, as we call them. And we have this cool visual animated framework that makes it really easy to grasp on our site. But essentially, for example, in the freedom domain, in the freedom bucket, there’s the need for autonomy, the need for flexibility or free expression. In the balance domain, there’s the work life harmony motive and the balance paste motive, but self esteem is a motive appreciation, belonging, prestige. So what our research also showed that was really interesting, though, is that what you need most to thrive at work is going to be different than what I need most. Some of these motives are going to be must haves for me, and some of them, I might go “Sure, that’d be like nice to have, maybe, but it’s just, it’s not a driver for me.” But for someone else, that can be their number one driver. And so we really discovered that this, this acceptance of motive diversity in our workplaces, in our work teams, is really lacking, because we tend to kind of assume that others need what we need, that others feel how we feel. And then additionally, we don’t even know how we feel it times what we need, because we have blind spots. And we’re just not always paying attention.

Blake Schofield 18:53
I love what you’re talking about in terms of being able to see the diversity of individuals, that is also what I have come to understand there is such a lack of depth, I think in our understanding of life in the way that we learn, in our understanding of ourselves and other people that often creates many of the challenges that we have, you know, I’ve always been somebody that like, even in high school, I was the person that would end up in like two or three hour conversations with somebody where I would, they would literally tell me things that like no one else knows. And so, for me, I have found that depth has always been a key to true success in life. Right? If you want to become an expert in something, there’s a depth of that if you really want to understand somebody, there’s a depth of that. And so I love that the research that you and your mom did and really came to understand was that we are unique and we are different. And if we are trying to apply these broad based strokes about how other people should feel, and what motivates you is then therefore what motivates other people. We will never be successful. Like we’re trying to assume that everyone is the same.

Blake Schofield 20:00
And I remember really early in my career as a leader, one of my bosses said that to me, in several different ways, right? Like, “Blake you’re an A player, but not everybody else is.” And I was like, why everybody should be. Right, everyone should be this way, you know, I would see those things about the things that I was motivated by, but other people weren’t. And it wasn’t actually until I spent time as a leader at Target, that I was really shown the beauty of that, the beauty of really understanding each individual for who they were and what motivated them, and what they needed to be fulfilled and happy. And I think that there’s so much opportunity for us to understand ourselves at a deeper level that then enables us to understand others. And at least for me, that was the journey. So when you say like people, people just don’t even have a context for what they want, because there’s a lack of true depth of understanding themselves, and their motivators, and their experiences, and their fears, and their conditioning, and their reactions to things, and why they are reacting in that way. And then therefore, it’s very difficult to be able to see somebody else.

Blake Schofield 21:09
I often think about what Oprah Winfrey says, right? Most people just want to feel seen, heard, and understood. And when we talk about poor leadership inside an organization often that is because the people that are working for that leader don’t feel seen, heard, or understood. And so when we get things like, well, they leave bad bosses. Well, that boss was a bad boss for that person, because they didn’t understand or see what that person was capable of, or what they needed. And so, I love the framework that you’ve put together, which begins to help people see the diversity of motivators, the diversity of thought. And yet, I would say like, for me, I think a big thing that I really uncovered, and the work that we do on The Bridge to Fulfillment® is helping people get to those deeper levels for themselves. Because I think as a society, we think that tests alone will solve those problems. And I’ll just apply this thing.

Blake Schofield 22:00
But there are nuances beyond all of those motivators, there are belief systems, there are things we walk into the work environment with, that impact everything in the way that we see the world interact with each other, become truly teams where we can feel safe. And you mentioned that earlier. And I’m interested to dive into this a little bit, because I don’t think we’ve talked too much about this on the podcast, but it is what I have seen to be fundamental to people’s health and happiness, which is a sense of safety in an environment. And that sense of safety for each individual may look different. But if organizations and leaders don’t understand what safety is for them, or what safety is, for other individuals, I don’t care how many tests you take, I don’t care how much growth you have inside your job, you won’t be able to solve the stress and anxiety and the problems that I think plagues so many people from having well being at work. Is that what you’ve seen? And what are your thoughts around psychological safety and creating an environment where people feel that?

Kelly Mackin 23:08
Psychological safety is so important, if you want well being at work. And I mean, I love that it’s become such a hot topic of conversation, I think, because it’s such a bedrock for so many things, very culture, retention, wellbeing, all of the things. But our research shows when people have their motives met at work, when these needs are healthy, they have much higher degree of connection, psychological safety, trust, and feeling like they can be vulnerable at work. And a big part of that is creating an environment where people feel that they can talk about this stuff, where like you’re saying that my leaders care, to see me to hear me to know me. That’s huge in and of itself, it doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to as a leader, solve every need, solve every problem, but feeling like you care, feeling like I can be in an environment of, of bravery, where I can be brave, and I’m not going to have repercussions from that, so I have enough psychological safety and enough trust to be authentic with you, that is going to be pivotal.

Kelly Mackin 24:11
And it goes both ways. You also need to, a lot of times leaders kind of take the heat of, you know, rowing psychological safety on a team and 100% that is true and they hammer that in for a reason. But a more empowered thing to do when it comes to psychological safety or well being and they really can be one in the same is to empower people on your team and in your culture to advocate for it themselves. To create that environment where they feel that they can do that. Because without that, you’re tending to still kind of like we were talking about before put band aids on things. So you need to create a culture where people having their voice heard is something that they feel they can do and you have to put accountability on them to also say you got to do it. I’m creating the environment for you, I need, I need you to step up and tell me when your needs aren’t met. And I’m also going to ask you about them. But I need you to also take the lead too.

Blake Schofield 25:09
I love that so much. And I think that’s really also the conclusion I came to, which is no one’s going to care about your career as much as you. No one is going to understand your needs in the way that you need to understand your needs. And the greatest path to personal growth, development, fulfilment is from within, because when you learn what you need for your own safety, you can advocate for it in ways that other people never can for you. I’m interested to hear your perspective, right, because I think there are certain areas of the country that understanding, creating a culture of safety, really understanding individuals and their needs, having open and honest conversations about what people need and how they’re feeling about work in their job.

Blake Schofield 25:56
I, you know, my experience has been that there are certain areas of the country where that is more common. And there are a lot of areas of the country where it’s not. Where people are still living in environments, where leaders are pushing, you just have to suck it up, you just need to get it done. And where people feel unsafe to say, I feel overwhelmed by my workload, or I’m not sure how to balance these things, or I really don’t feel like I need to be in XYZ meetings, I still see so much of this. And it’s certainly a lot of what I lived in my corporate life and a lot of what kept me feeling like I didn’t have power, over my time, energy, or state of mind, which wasn’t true, it was an illusion, but I didn’t know how to handle it or what to do with it. I’m interested, what is your research shown around that? And what advice would you give to people if they are either in an area of the country or in a work environment today, where that’s not the norm? How do you begin to advocate for yourself and create what you need?

Kelly Mackin 26:53
Well, what we’ve seen is that it’s been a little bit more job and company specific, you know, I’ve kind of seen all over the board, no matter where you’re located in the country, there are certain organizations that still don’t use well being and work in the same sentence. And there are one to use it in the same sentence all the time. And even of the ones that do it can be tough, because again, this isn’t easy, you know, well being at work is something that, in some ways we feel like is very simple. From our research, we’ve really figured out how to create it. But it doesn’t mean that it’s easy to do, right. So one of the things that we help coach people on when it comes to getting their motives met is to be able to really know what matters most to you. Because a lot of times we do kind of go, “Hey, I’m not unhappy at work, I’m stressed, I’m burnt out.” But we’re not able to really vocalize why and the needs that aren’t being met.

Kelly Mackin 27:50
And that is one of my favorite definitions of stress is that stress is how we respond when our needs are not met. So we tend to label everything as stress, because it’s easy to kind of hide beneath the covers of it. But if you dig deeper, you can go, “Oh, I don’t feel secure at work. I feel afraid.” It’s not really just stress, I’m afraid, because my need for psychological safety or my need for financial security isn’t being met. So you have to really understand yourself first before you can expect someone else to be able to understand you. Same thing with burnout. We can kind of label just “Oh yeah, I’m working too much. That’s why I’m burnt out.” Our research and other research shows no when needs aren’t met, that can create burnout. For example, the other week, I had a crazy work week, it was one of those weeks where everything that could go wrong. Everything literally did go wrong. Our entire website, just poof out of nowhere went away. It was a wild week. And I was so emotionally exhausted that weekend. And I was really reflecting on it. And I went “God, I’m such a perfect example right now of why having your needs met is what is the bigger cause of burnout.” Because I wasn’t just burnt out because I worked a lot that week, I was ready to be honest planning, I’m working a lot, I’m a few weeks away from my book launch. It was going to be a busy week. But for me, the bigger problem was I wanted to be working on my future success and my big goals. That’s one of my top motives.

Kelly Mackin 29:19
And instead I was putting out fires having panic attacks, doing executional work. That was the bigger reason why I was burned out, not just because I put in a lot of hours. So when you figure these things out about yourself, then you’re in a much better position to be able to go advocate for those needs. So that’s always kind of the first step. Step two, is that you have to embrace being a courageous communicator. I wish I could tell you it’s always safe to speak up. I wish I could tell you it’s totally fine to be vulnerable and be your human self at work. Unfortunately, it’s not. So you are going to have to discern how brave do you feel you can be, but you have to be willing to be courageous, and have those uncomfortable conversations? Otherwise, you cannot expect that things are going to change. And so often I see that happen with people. And I used to do it myself. And it seems like you also maybe kind of did that too of like, “Oh, no, it’ll get better, you know, they’ll just kind of, it’ll just kind of work itself out.” And then it doesn’t, because we also have to remember other people aren’t mind reader’s. And again, they might not know what we need, they might not need the same thing we need. So they just might not be thinking about something that’s important to you at all in the way you’re thinking about it.

Blake Schofield 30:34
Yeah. And you may also be inside an organization that does not align with your value system, or the culture you need. And you know, that’s a big thing I often talk to people about is you really need to go five to six layers deeper than what you probably are, to really understand the attributes of what that ideal leader, what that ideal environment, what that ideal culture, what that ideal value system looks like for the people and environments of which you work. Because I can tell you personally, for me that there were several organizations I worked in that were extremely fear based. And the entire methodology was if you deliver results, I don’t care how miserable your team is, or how good of a leader you are, you will be promoted. And advocating for your needs was acceptable to a point. And then that was it. And it was very much a culture based on fear that if you didn’t have the answer, more than once, you clearly didn’t know what you were doing. It was an environment where it was very clear, if a top leader didn’t like you, you would be blackballed. And I don’t care how much I knew about my needs, that environment was never going to serve what I needed. Because it for me was incredibly unhealthy.

Blake Schofield 31:53
No matter how much you perform, or how much you do, it didn’t matter. It was always about what can you deliver for me today? And how can you sacrifice to show me that you’re committed to the work. And so I think for people, it’s important to be able to have the courage to communicate what you need. And it’s, you need to do that first, right, rather than assume, and I can see places where I assumed, I didn’t ask, I didn’t get what I needed. And I think often people do that. And then they just repeat the same patterns in other places. They just take that same problem and keep having it and the next company and the next boss and the next whatever. But leaving that it is the external circumstance for the person instead of recognizing it’s an opportunity for them to learn. And so I think we have to be willing to ask those things first. But when you really understand what you need, from an environment standpoint, you can then begin to understand, have I put myself with the right people, the right environment, the right places? Because it is a world of difference when you’re in the right culture with the right people who appreciate your talents and gifts in the way of which you do work. And it can be literally a living nightmare in the wrong ones.

Kelly Mackin 33:02
Yes, I absolutely. And I mean, that would be, you know, my go to is not to tell people, “Oh, your motives aren’t met if your taught me is I would just quit just walk out.” Because again, the grass isn’t always greener. And you’re always going to need to be working on getting these needs met. So yes, you have to see what can be done in your current environment. But a lot of times, you might say, Hey, I told them what I needed. I talked to my boss, it’s never going to happen here. And I could sit here for five more years, more stress and unhappiness and burnout and fear and doubt, and whatever, or I can make the tough decision now, which is ultimately the right decision to go find somewhere else where my needs are going to be better met. Because ill being at work is not sustainable.

Blake Schofield 33:50
A hundred percent.

Kelly Mackin 33:51
It’s not, it’s just it always, always ends up being worse off, the more you kick the can down the road. And that’s one of the regrets my mom had of I wish I had left sooner. And it’s one of the regrets I had too. So you definitely have to advocate for yourself. But if you advocate and not enough change can happen, then you might need to make a really big change in your work life. You know, it’s interesting when we help people put together wellbeing action plans for themselves or for like their team or company. Sometimes it’s the smallest little habits and things we can do that can make a huge difference for some of our motives. But sometimes this is one of we have 10 work life well lived principles which are kind of like these laws to live by to help people have well being, you know, sometimes it’s big changes, it’s being willing to be uncomfortable. And that could be a courageous conversation with your boss. It could be starting your own business. It could be looking for a new job. But you definitely have to start with you know, knowing yourself first, like we were saying, you know, Aristotle says knowing thyself is the beginning of all wisdom. Not really easy to do though. So know yourself and then you seek that out outside support you need and really be able to Look at what is possible and what’s not.

Blake Schofield 35:02
Yeah, I love that. It’s an interesting thing, right, I started The Bridge to Fulfillment® in 2017, and have helped people across all different modalities, whether it is maybe I want to start my own business, to starting my own business, to just changing companies to an entirely different career change. And ultimately, what I always say is, it starts with gaining control of your time, energy, state of mind, you have to really understand that, and then you have to gain clarity about who you are and what you need. And what are the real root causes of your lack of fulfillment. And, you know, many times it is this misalignment of what are we doing, how are we doing it, and it’s misaligned in terms of how it works. And often, I also find it is the big T and little T traumas, the conditionings, the things that we can see easily in our work are making us unhappy, but they’re actually the same things making us unhappy in our personal relationships, our life, etc. And so, I think it’s a place where I’ve heard so many times my clients say, this should be like a college course, everyone should get this, like a launchpad for life. I think we have not been taught as a society, because we just have gotten to a place in society where I think we understand this better, and we have the space and the time and the ability to do things our ancestors couldn’t, to begin to understand that the most important thing you can do is really understand who you are and what you need, and do your own personal work.

Blake Schofield 36:31
When you do your own personal work, you understand who you are and what you need, you can then place yourself in the right environments, you can advocate for yourself in a way that’s respectful, you can understand the people of which you work with and connect with them in a way that makes you a better leader, a better mom, a better partner, whatever those things might be. And those things, create fulfilment and happiness and psychological safety and allow you to be motivated and energized by the work that you’re doing. And so I love the fact that you’re helping people begin to have a framework to start to understand this, because at the end of the day, most of us believe our problems lie outside of us, but they really don’t, we have the power to create all of that change, but it starts internal. And if you aren’t doing the work to understand yourself and what you need, and what are the things that are standing in the way of you going after or asking for or moving your life towards what you need., that is is really the thing that’s in your way. It’s really not the crazy boss, or the projects, or the toxic industry, or whatever it is that it appears to be. That’s just the illusion.

Kelly Mackin 37:38
Yes, no, I love the way you frame that. And really, again, putting power back in your hands, because it’s true, you do have that power. And one thing that I think is important for me to add that I don’t think I’ve mentioned yet is, not only having the awareness of your needs now, but really embracing the truth, or what we call the ugly truth of work well being, because it makes it a little tougher, that your needs are going to change, right your work like this isn’t like a static, oh, this is my top need, and it’s always going to stay this way. It’s you’re going to need to continuously navigate your work life along with your personal life, right. And as big milestones happen in your work life or your personal life, or maybe you get a new job, you’re on a new account at work, stuff can change. And it can really impact the human needs that are driving you most.

Kelly Mackin 38:26
So learning to kind of let go of control a little bit in that way. For me, it was really, it was really important for me, it put me in that much more again, empowered driver’s seat, I felt in my well being to go, Hey, this isn’t as important right now, or this is important, and it’s not perfect. But guess what, that’s okay, these other knees are doing good. And then in the future, I know this will be important again, and it’s kind of being able to like ride the wave a little bit instead of trying to like push against the wave and control it. So when you can kind of have that mindset of like, hey, you know, there are these 20 needs, but guess what, they’re not all going to be perfect. But hey, what matters most to me now? Can I get those things healthy? How can I be strategic maybe make tough decisions, because sometimes it might be, you might have two needs that really are kind of conflicting. But if you approach it from a strategic problem solving standpoint and being proactive, and preventative with your well being instead of passive and reactive, and you’re all of a sudden like “Oh my god, I’m so miserable.” That’s what’s going to allow you to again, create a better work life for you today and then being able to again in six months, hey, I moved I just had a kid stuff has changed. Okay, how am I going to now approach this differently? So to be able to do that is really important.

Blake Schofield 39:40
100% agree. And in the end, learning how to navigate those changes, recognizing that life is just a cycle of creation, destruction, and rebirth. And I think often we’ve not been taught that as a society and so we cling to things or avoid things that no longer serve us. instead of recognizing the beauty that lies on the other side of listening to our needs, and going after more, right, letting go of what is, you know, everyone else tells us that we should be happy that we have, and actually seeking the thing that will give us that joy. Kelly, this has been so fun. I know, we’re almost out of time. And I know you’re launching a book shortly. So can you share a little bit about the book when we can find it and just give the audience some info on it in case they’d like to learn more?

Kelly Mackin 40:33
Absolutely. The book is called Work Life Well-Lived: The Motives Met Pathway to No-B.S. Well-Being at Work. So this book is really going to disrupt the way you think about health and happiness in your work life and your work cultures, and you know, with your work relationships. But most importantly, it’s really about giving you this no B.S. roadmap to actually get you to where you want to go. So I always say like, I designed this to be a book you do more than a book you read, you get a free code to take the human needs assessment and uncover your top five motives out of these 28. So as you’re going through the book, it’s so personalized to you, which is the whole point that wellbeing is personal. So I take you down our No B.S. Pathway to Well Being which is to help you to understand, be mindful of, evaluate, communicate, and ultimately meet these motives for yourself, the people you work with, and those you lead.

Kelly Mackin 41:27
So there’s all sorts of other tools like developing your well being action plan, having a way to kind of evaluate your needs, are they thriving? Are they drowning? And why is that? And you know, I know I shared a lot of, you know, the story of my mom and I it’s pretty cool. For me, I dedicated the book to my mom, and kind of the journey we’ve gone through. So it’s very cool to be able to come back around full circle, because a lot of the feedback we’ve gotten from advanced readers and people who have kind of engaged with us and Motives Met is just that feeling of empowerment, of like, I feel empowered, to take action, either for myself, or for the people on my team or in my company in a way I’ve never truly felt before. And so that is one of the things that really stands out about our book.

Blake Schofield 42:15
Awesome. Well, Kelly, it’s been a pleasure, I always appreciate to find others that are lighting the path. And I think there’s still so much opportunity to shift how we look at work life balance, how we look at and understand ourselves and other people and how we bring more humanity to our work, which is where we spend the majority of our life. With that said, Is there anything to close it out that I haven’t asked you that I should have? Or that’s just on your heart you want to make sure to share before we close out?

Kelly Mackin 42:45
You know, I feel like we touched on a lot of the good things, so I feel good about it. Feel good about it.

Blake Schofield 42:51
Awesome, awesome. Well, for those of you listening, you know, I challenge you to think about what were the one or two most impactful things that you got from today’s podcast and how can you take action on them this week to create more forward momentum in your career and your life. Until next time, have a great one.